The Final Countdown, Part 1: Douthat v. Goldberg

Ba da daaaaa dummm, ba da dum dum dummm! *Chicken dance*

With the election soon to be over, I've been eagerly awaiting the much-anticipated Battle Royale on the Right about The Future of conservatism. I was waiting for rash finger-pointing and thoughtful introspection. My first treat came yesterday, three days early, and it's deliciously respectful and introspective.

I sat down to write about the bloggingheads.tv Revolving-Cage-O'-Death-Cagematch between The Atlantic's Ross Douthat and NRO's Jonah Goldberg, but it turned into a liveblog! (Well, its not a liveblog, per se, as it is a delayed broadcast, but it's live for me, and these reactions and summaries are all my own).

Let's face it: while BloggingHeads stuff is fun to watch, rarely do most of us get a chance to sit down and watch the whole thing, front to back. Most times we try and multi-task, minimizing the window, thus creating an audiotrack on our work computer (shame on us). Even then, though, I know we rarely get the gist of these always-meaty arguments with such skimpy attention skills. Well, that's where I come in.

I'm going to attempt to fuse together a sports-form, the liveblog, with the wonkiest of political discourses. It will contain immature and utterly unfounded assertions mixed in with my honest policy thoughts and responses. Hopefully they will be easy to separate, but no promises.

The main result at the end? I'm convinced that Goldberg is getting a nice kickback from Aquafina for his drinking habits.

-----

0:01 Goldberg already on the attack, as Douthat is caught unawares at the opening bell, starting with alarm at Goldberg's voice and squinting at his webcame. Not auspicious.

0:40 Some early snark on Chicago from both men. "Obama's done a bang up job. It's like Stockholm" -- Goldberg. /socialism-lolz

1:56 Some worry from Douthat about rioting if Obama loses, esp. in the case of a McCain electoral college win. Images from The Warriors, political pundit style, run through my head.

3:00- 7:30 Douthat stakes the claim that there is a fundamental weakness in GOP/conservativeland in regards to domestic policy. Small-government politicians are having a problem reaching voters. Douthat rejects the Limbaugh-ian claim that the reason for GOP defeats is a lack of "truly" conservative policies, that we've had an overserving of moderate gravy in the GOP potatoes, if you will. Douthat expresses fear that we'll have a polarizing fight in the Right, with some falling on the more populist side while others are more on the NY-DC elite side.

8:29 Douthat, while sipping from a styrofoam cup filled with gin*, admits to 'staggering drunkenly'** through his argument.

*I have no proof that this is true.
**He really did say this though.

8:41 Goldberg tells Douthat-the-whippersnapper to fear not, conservatives have way more fun with a Democrat in power anyways. It's unifying to be outside the fishbowl, according to Jonah, as we can all strategize on how to attack the castle of the establishment.

10:15 Goldberg calls himself the Rodney King of the Right. Not in the jacked-on-PCP-contra-the-cops kind of way, but rather in the "lets get along" kind of way.

11:00 Goldberg argues that conservativism isn't nearly as dogmatic as the Left likes to think, but rather conservatives are much more comfortable debating core concepts, while Leftists are settled on the theoretical basics and only talk about brute tactics.

12:05 Douthat says "hold on", and explains that his fear is more of a schism broken down on RedState/Hot Air vs. George Will/David Frum lines.

14:27 First Star Trek reference from Goldberg! Calls the NetRights' hysterics akin to discommendation ceremony in Klingon culture. Says the emotion is attributable to election crazes. (Interesting that the Right doesn't quite reach the hysterics of DailyKos. --S.)

15:08 Douthat is disspirited that Jonah didn't take the bait and pick a side in the fete-elite vs sticks-hicks fight: "Man, you're takin' the long view. Very wise of you." It looks like he was hoping Goldberg would put up a fight. Well, there goes his planned points for the next 15 minutes! Very taoist, Jonah.

15:30 TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES!!! EVERYBODY PANIC!! Also, CLOVERFIELD REFERENCES!!! RESUME PANIC!!!

16:26 Douthat feels that the worse the defeat of the GOP in '08, the more damage that can/will be done to America writ large. Also thinks that the McCain campaign has been "stumbling and flailing".

17:40 Goldberg talks about the difference between anti-state and anti-Left which is found in the differences between neoconservatives (the actual kind) and traditional conservatives. Irving Kristol, paterneocon-ias, has a legacy of talking about "conserv-a-tizing" the state rather than repudiating its expansion. Goldberg thinks Douthat and other "reform conservatives" have to reckon for their stance approving of such tactics in the face of abject failure during GWB's time in power.

17:51 Douthat takes his second slug of gin* from his styrofoam cup.

*Again, no real proof that it's actually gin.

19:54 Goldberg tries to create the hip new buzzword for Douthites and Brooksians, "Disraeliens". I think it lasts two weeks (sorry Jonah.)

20:01 Goldberg: "Bush is not an 'anti-state' conservative" + "measure of your politics is the meaure of your soul." = massive government programs. QED.

21:00 Limbaugh-types feel we've already given up so much, made so many concessions, and that's partly why they can't bring themselves to really get behind McCain. They feel strung along.

21:09 Douthat calls himself an "academic marxist of big government conservatism." That's an efficient use of political buzz terms!

21:58 Goldberg: lots of conservatives have "buyer's remorse over Bush."

23:01 Douthat "We have to account for the Bush administration." Feels it might be possible for Reform conservatives to do it on a case-by-case basis for individual programs. Also calls compassionate conservatism more soft-headed and liberal than how the original neo-cons talked.

24:11 First book-pimping, this one by Douthat. Will we have a Liberal Fascism sighting?

25:00 Douthat reminds us that Bush has been overwhelmingly successful in the Fight Against Homelessness. Maybe I'm too callous and libertarian minded, but I find such reasoning terribly underwhelming. I'm closer to a Mencken-esque "screw 'em all" mindset.

26:23 Douthat calls immigration reform the biggest "betrayal" of the conservative movement by GWB.

27:15 Douthat admits he's been rambling, but still reiterates that he's frustrated with the Rush-vs.-moderates model, finding it troubling for the future.

28:10 Contra "compassionate", Goldberg orders his convervatism "with smiting and wrath". He then attempts to headbutt his own webcam, either that or he's adjusting in his uncomfortable Holiday Inn chair.

28:20 Goldberg thinks its fools gold and wrong-headed to try and market conservatism as caring more about the "coalition of the oppressed." It's an unwinnable fight.

28:50 Douthat interrupts!! An egregious transgression! But he uses his scurillous maneuver to make a point that conservatives need to argue that the welfare-state, already presumed existent, isn't strongly biased against certain demographics.

29:28 Goldberg recovers and returns-fire with an Emerson quote about the stingy-but-yet-empirical nature of conservatism. We need to regain that empricism and realism, sez Goldberg. It needs to be able to say "mean facts."

30:31 Goldberg sips from an Aquafina bottle. The royalties from those sips probably finance his second-mansion in Fairbanks, Alaska.

31:30 Douthat maintains that the mainstream perception of the economy is much more dreary than we might remember, even in the so-called boom moments a few years back. Conservatives need to address that fact.

32:27 Third slug of gin* for Douthat.

*Possibly vodka? The styrofoam cup betrays no hints.

33:18 Both bemoan the demise of The Public Interest, the policy journal, and point out that it is greatly needed right now. I'm pretty political-nerdy and have all the policy-wonk baseball cards, and I only have a vague recollection of seeing that journal in the vast racks of journals at a D.C. Barnes and Noble... I think.

34:30 Goldberg paints himself as a "war profiteer" of intellectual battles. I have a funny image of a man smoking a large cigar in the back seat of a limo, grinning wildly at printouts showing his ideas are reaching all-time highs in term of popularity.

35:20 They move on to Sarah Palin. Goldberg thinks both Palin and Obama suffer/benefit from people's projecting their own views onto their respective personas, whether as Messiah or Communist, whether as Reagan-as-a-Hockey-Mom or Cynical-Ploy-for-Hillary-Grouches.

37:35 Douthat thinks anti-intellectualism is a big problem for Republicans at the moment.

38:15 Goldberg is like "WTF? Since when did the Vice President really matter?"

38:55 Jonah thinks some of the treatment of Palin has injured the critics unto total discreditment. I'm not alone in thinking that he's hinting at Andrew Sullivan, I bet. That is if Goldberg even thinks about that guy anymore.

39:45 Goldberg: Noonan and Brooks types are calling Palin "George W. Bush in a dress." That is a very unattractive mental image.

40:45 Another sip of Aquafina for Goldberg, another five-figure check in the Swiss account.

41:23 Sip o' gin* from styrofoam cup for Douthat. He needs to get a product-placement deal like Goldberg clearly has.

*Maybe it's gin. We might never know.

42:05 Douthat: "We need to admit that Palin gave a bad interview to Couric, but there is undoubtedly some over-reacting on the part of some on our side to her nomination.

43:00 Goldberg and Douthat both bemoan the loss of off-the-record conversations and after-speech soirees since there are bloggers and HuffPo writers at every single event. You can drink with me, fellas. You can tell me all about your deep-seated interests in Russian ballet, Gilmore Girl DVD collections, and love for Veg-a-mite. Or whatever.

44:00 Goldberg predicts that Palin will come around in the future and prove her critics both wrong and idiotic.

45:30 Douthat points out Palin has a chance to be more popular than Huckabee since she'll have both his demographic as well as the "talk-radio" group.

46:18 Douthat claims that Palin also needs to assuage some of the conservative intelligentsia in some form or another, if only to attract the "radical center" types who are influenced by Atlantic-types of magazine.

47:00 Douthat: "Palin isn't like Dan Quayle." That's comforting.

47:55 Douthat is flustered by Goldberg's detachment from the election. Goldberg admits he's "friggin' exhausted."

48:25 Douthat summarizes that: over the GWB administrations, Goldberg has moved more to the "right" on domestic issues while Douthat admits he's moved to a more realist and "crypto-paleo-con" position in foreign policy. Douthat asks Goldberg: where have you shifted on foreign policy?

50:30 Goldberg replies that his theories of "liberal imperialism" are still strong, but he is more wary of the means with which such goals are achieved. He rejects the Weekly Standard hawkishness, drawing as an example that their raber-sattling, er, saber-rattling over fighting China early this decade was "outrageously irresponsible."

51:50 Douthat drops a Harvard reference. You can't go an hour with an alum without hearing about their time in Cambridge. (I kid, I kid. It's Michigan-alum-jealous-snark, I promise.)

53:00 Goldberg points out that the Iraq War and Afghanistan have proven how hard it can be to "do good in the world". Goldberg says that "if we could afford to bring Africa out of poverty, we should do it."

54:40 The past few years have increased Douthat's respect for Reagan's skillful foreign-policy maneuvers, threading the gap between idealism and realism/pragmatism.

55:10 I'm going to take this moment to point out that one of the two of them is right next to an airport, my guess being Jonah. How do I know this creepy-stalker tidbit? 'Cuz we've had like 5 fly-bys that have broken the reverie around the august discussion.

56:50 Goldberg and Douthat agree: the first Gulf War contributed to our 2000's problems in Iraq. We had a "cakewalk" in 1991, and we could have enjoyed much more international support for nation-building back then as well.

58:00 Goldberg I think summarizes a lot of conservatives' frustration with the GWB administration by saying to Douthat (paraphrase): Just as your beliefs in an accomodating and conservative-friendly Big Government have been discredited by GWB's policies over the past 8 years, so too he has done with foreign policy, especially if The Surge hadn't worked so well.

59:15 Goldberg never cared too much for the WMD-argument for Iraq, Douthat thinks that the religious-voter "Iraq was 'just'" argument is overplayed, and that he wishes we had had more prudence in 2003.

61:50 Both the gentlemen have no sympathy for the idea that the Iraq War was anything less than a purely bipartisan affair. Douthat: "There were a lot of people who thought the war was a good idea."

62:42 Yet another Goldberg sip from the Aquafina bottle. Goldberg +$10,000

63:50 Both stick their heads right next to their webcams for a very brief stare-down. No punches were thrown.

---FIN---